The body shaming and misogyny in NCIS and Hawaii 5-0 fandoms is not okay.

[theeverdream]

ETA: A lot of what I say is non-specific; my comments to this post have a lot more detail, if you want it.

So apparently in the two active fandoms I'm in, body shaming has been deemed acceptable. Not just okay by an unspoken consensus among community members but actually permitted by mods. One of the comms has a rule against negativity towards actors and I was told that saying something is wrong with someone because of their weight doesn't qualify.

One of the mods of a comm I'm in is very anti-a woman character and it comes out very badly. There's supposed to be no bashing in that comm either. People in different comms say "you know who" or "her" when talking about someone and it is childish at best, misogynistic at worst.

It's getting ridiculous. Saying "her".. referring to characters in a derisive manner - I think that weakens slash fandom as a whole and that saddens me. If I had to choose which issue I was more passionate about, it would be the body shaming, due to my own experiences and the experiences of my friends and family. People with the same body types as certain actors are being told there is something wrong with them and they stand in front of their mirror and believe it.

This is not okay.

I don't really know what to do anymore - it's hard to try to make things better with no support from the people who could implement some changes. So here is what I can do right now. Have a graphic:





Link to it, pass it on... spread it around however you want to.

Look at it and believe it no matter if you're bigger or smaller.

Comments

[gyri.livejournal.com]

I haven't come across body-shaming in the H5O fandom, but I totally agree with you it should not happen and I applaud your support and encouragement.

However, I am more than a bit sensitive at this point for being labeled misogynistic because I happen to express dislike for a female character or dare to criticize a female actor.

[theeverdream.livejournal.com]

I'm very glad you've managed to avoid it.

I feel that there is a level of misogyny present in certain discussions or communities but I can't judge from a statement or even a handful of statements what a person feels about women and I would not call any individual person misogynistic without knowing a whole lot more about them than I would from brief comments in fandom communities. Does that make sense?

Basically if I read one person being even very derogatory about a female character or actor, I understand that's an opinion. (As long as people don't get into name calling for no reason or get completely over-the-top irrational but I don't really see that ever.) I may find it an unfortunate opinion depending on many factors but it is okay to have opinions. But in a community those types of comments can build up, you know?


I think it's childish to not even bring onesself to say a female's name, but I would not call a singular person misogynistic for doing so. Which is why I said it's at worst misogynistic - when it becomes a thing that multiple people do, creating an atmosphere of putting down females, that's when I start to worry.

I really appreciate the comment!

[gyri.livejournal.com]

You're welcome.

I'm assuming that when you speak of levels of misogyny in this situation, you are referring to the debate/controversy over the Lori character?

I understand what you're trying to say, but I feel the need to explain:

A LOT of people simply don't like the character. What I can't understand is why someone would label that dislike as misogynistic. Because those same people who dislike Lori love Kono and bemoan her lack of screentime, or they love Catherine, or Kensi (who appeared maybe all of five minutes but who seems to have garnered many fans).

So I can't see how this is "an atmosphere of putting down females," when people are only expressing dislike of one particular female--and not simply because she is female. Please understand---I'm not trying to be snotty or throw your words back in your face, just trying to make a point. This has been a very sore issue that has been dividing fandom from day one.

To me, misogyny is hatred of women BECAUSE they are women. That's not what I see happening here. The character is not liked because many people (myself included), have expressed that she is written badly, she is portrayed badly, and seems to have no real purpose on the show besides as a stand-in for three of the regular cast members. That's what upsets me, and I think that's why others are so upset. Why should fans be labeled misogynistic for saying they want her off the show? It makes no sense, yet that's what seems to have occurred, time and again.

Blanket or unconditional acceptance or admiration is never a good thing in any circumstance, IMO. I disagree with those who say I should support someone (whether fictional or otherwise), no matter what, just because of their gender.

However, there is a respectful way to express things. Name-calling and bashing of the actual actress is immature and in extremely bad taste.

Anyway, sorry to have gone on about this. If I am totally wrong in thinking this was what you were referring to, I'll delete the comment.

[theeverdream.livejournal.com]

Not so much Lori from H50 as female characters from NCIS.

Regarding Lori, I've seen a lot of dislike towards her and a lot of it is of the opinion type. The worst thing is, I think, the not referring to her by name. When someone says something like blah blah a scene with "her" and then someone else says oh yes, I'd rather not see "you know who"... that, to me, creates a poor atmosphere. I think it puts so much emphasis on dismissing who Lori is. Even if we dislike her, she is a person with a name and I think a basic level of respect should not be that hard to give.

I definitely would not think an atmosphere, even a widespread atmosphere, of wanting her off the show is misogynistic (even if I did not agree that "she is written badly, she is portrayed badly, and seems to have no real purpose on the show". I don't like Lori either. I'd much rather see Kono more than we currently do.)

I am not bothered by your comment at all and there's no need to delete anything. I know there was a lot of stuff in my post I was not referring to specifically so I don't mind clarifying anything that needs to be.

[gyri.livejournal.com]

Oh, whew. Still, it's your journal and I shouldn't have gotten up on a soapbox--should use my own journal for that.

[theeverdream.livejournal.com]

Oh no!! I figure posting something like this is going to invite comment and discussion, and you were respectfully doing that and it's all good :-)

[calcitrix.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's terrible. How do they not understand that both of those are negative things?

[theeverdream.livejournal.com]

Apparently it's negative but not badly enough, like how calling someone names wouldn't be allowed.

[theeverdream.livejournal.com]

Or wait, actually, no, it isn't just "not negative enough" - I've actually heard back that in the cases of the body shaming it is being concerned for an actor's health.

[calcitrix.livejournal.com]

How can they know? I am personally concerned for a woman I know who married into a home with two teenage daughters when one daughter tells me her new mom makes herself throw up when she thinks she's eaten too much. I am not at all concerned about my sister in law, who is thin because she exercises and is a vegetarian. To presume to know anything that personal about an actor or actress is ridiculous, and to judge it and call it wrong even more so.

[theeverdream.livejournal.com]

Yes thank you!!

[elayna88.livejournal.com]

I'm confused about the body shaming... are people dissing on the actresses or the fans? Or both?

Neither makes much sense to me. Admittedly, I think most actresses these days could stand to put on a few pounds, but they can't, because their profession demands the super skinny standard.

And actresses become successful because they *can* meet the Hollywood standard of beauty and thinness. To expect fans, normal people who like to watch TV and read /write fanfic for their hobbies, to be as gorgeous is just silly.

[theeverdream.livejournal.com]

Actors/actresses and characters, not fans.

I don't know if you know that I'm referring to people criticizing of being too thin?

[elayna88.livejournal.com]

It was unclear to me what you were referring to. The last "we don't all look like this, that's okay" graphic seemed to be pointing toward people with overweight problems, but that didn't make sense with the references to actresses.

I think most actresses are too thin, I won't deny that. But I don't understand spending a lot of time dissing them in a community because of that fact. They're either among the genetically lucky, or they work freaking hard at exercise or diet control or whatever they need to do to maintain the shape that Hollywood demands these days. That determination is to their credit.

[theeverdream.livejournal.com]

The graphic saying "we" ... it's just because I have a person saying "hey look at so and so and the way she looks, I love the way she looks" and one person saying "oh wow, that's such an ego boost 'cause I look like that" and it has to work the other way. I find that absolutely tragic.

And the graphic isn't just meant to say larger is okay, but smaller too (maybe I should put plus/minus signs on it, IDK)

Yes there's that Hollywood standard of thinness and to be naturally thin may be considered lucky in some ways but there are people I know who have the body type of Grace Park and have been mockingly offered a sandwich. She did (does?) modelling for Maxim magazine and looks stunning. Take someone like her and walk them down the street, maybe someone who doesn't have a pretty face or a famous face or whatever, and people think there's something wrong. In fact, people have said there's something wrong with Grace Park too.

When you say "I think most actresses are too thin"... yes, Hollywood helps create a standard of "fat people need not apply" and that's definitely wrong. It would be fantastic to have a wider variety of shapes and sizes on our TVs! So I agree that most actresses are thin and I'd prefer that to not happen. But any of those individual actresses?

They're not too thin. They're just fine.